Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I've mentioned before about Willow barking at people doing strange things or in strange situations. We're working on it using Look at That!, but it seems like slow progress. Even though I know it's not been very long at all, I find it embarrassing when she barks at people, so it seems like it's been forever!!

Anyway, this evening, we went to our oft-used flat area for training. On the way there, we worked on her focussing on me, which went really well. I let her off lead and she stayed close, not wanting to wander off, which was great. Obviously, she had a few sniffs of things, but she didn't leave my immediate vicinity. So, we continued with some other training - a big slice of cheese on the floor to do some walk-by "leave it" training. It went well.

But then, two people arrived into the same general area, putting on telemark skis to go touring up the mountain in the dark (people are nutters - why not use the technology of the lifts during the day? ). I saw them first, so I was prepared and as soon as she looked, I marked and treated. But then immediately she started to bark at them. So, I turned away from them and walked a few paces, then turned back, C&T for Look at That! but again, she immediately started barking. I repeated once more, trying to get in a second marker, but it just wasn't happening, so I decided to just walk away from them. There's only one way to go from there, so that's the way I went - and came across two kids on plastic sledges! Again, unsurprisingly, she barked. So, I was stuck between these two lots of people she was barking at.

However, other than the barking, she was really good, staying focussed on me, not wanting to go towards them, and performing behaviours I asked for. I asked for eye contact and got it; sit, walking to heel, yup and yup. So that seems like some progress, because she wasn't completely obsessed with the two lots of people, but every time she looked towards them, she would at least do a guttural woof before I could do anything.

In the end, I was a bit stuffed because they were both walking towards us, so I just asked for a sit with eye contact, which she did brilliantly. The skiers went past first and she didn't bark at them again. The kids were less easy, because they were being quite rowdy (quite acceptably, they're allowed to have fun on their holidays!) and were REALLY slow getting past us. So she did bark at them, albeit staying connected to me. I really was at a loss how to deal with it, other than ignoring the barking and C&Ting whenever I caught a Look at That! moment, but it didn't seem very effective.

I'm trying to take out the positives - and writing that, I can see there were actually a lot of them - but it's so difficult not to focus on the fact she was barking and I didn't really know how to deal with it.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Why is she barking? Is she frustrated, excited, or scared?

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I think it's a fear response. She's certainly not frustrated or excited.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Does she do it when she walks with Shadow?

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Yes. Which sets him off - he's not normally a barker. She also still barks at random noises in the apartment block, although she's gradually becoming a bit more desensitised to these and it takes more to get going.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I don't quite remember LAT being like that - although I don't use it for noise, because I don't have noise. If it doesn't work once, I use an interrupter (I use it when Charlie has fixated on another dog or ball but before he commits to leg it). Have you looked at the book again? What does it say? (I've got the book too, I'll have a look later).

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I'll re-read it today, but AFAIR, it said that, as soon as the dog looks at the person or object that sets them off, you C&T, and keep C&Ting the behaviour. Which distracts them from their default (in this case, barking) and makes it a good game. I've had some success with it when there were easier instances, and even before her spay, she'd start looking at me before the click. The end goal is to make the dog relax in these situations and trust you, the handler, that it's nothing to worry about.
Since her spay, she's been a lot worse and, watching her body language, it certainly seems fear-based. I have seen her wagging her tail doing it, but it's more of an uncertain wag than an excited one.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Ok, I'll try to have a look at it again later. I thought you should practice it without being in a situation where she might bark? ie can you put "look at that, turn back to me" on cue? But I might be misremembering....I will go read it again though, and come back to discuss.

It has worked for Charlie with previously a very powerful distraction, other dogs. It was a dreadful challenge, but now he looks and then springs round to me for his reward. It's a very strong behaviour. But like I said earlier, if he doesn't spring round after 3 seconds, I interrupt him (otherwise he will run). And his motivation is not fear, it's excitement.

So, it's interesting to think why Willow is scared? I know you were diligent about her socialisation, but are these situations that just didn't arise during her socialisation?

I doubt her spay is relevant, apart from it coinciding with her growing up. I know she had a miserable time of it, but that's a good reason for her to say hate the vet's, not bark at people in fields (which she had started anyway before her spay).

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Yes, I think you're right - by mentioning the spay, I really meant it was a two-week interruption in her training and she slipped backwards in a couple of other areas, too - as you say, coinciding with her growing up, too.

The barking initially started at the beginning of the ski season, when people started wearing hats and hoods, walking in ski boots and carrying their equipment. So I think that was a thing that was missing in her socialisation - it's quite hard to come across someone wearing that stuff when it's 30C out

Her body language when it's someone she's happy with is completely different. I'm not good at pinpointing exactly what it is, but she's just a lot more relaxed. She's quite stiff when she's barking at people in one of these situations. There's only one incident I can think of that might have been a trigger: about two months ago, we were walking past some parked cars and someone had got out on the other side without her noticing and when they popped out between the cars, it startled her, she jumped back and barked. But it was almost a non-event and we carried on our way quite happily. In hindsight, though, I wonder if it has anything to do with it, or whether it was nothing. In some ways, I suppose it doesn't matter - I can't change what happened back then, just try to deal with what's going on now.

Now, even if it's someone she doesn't know, if I approach them, she's absolutely fine. This morning on our walk, two long-term clients of John's were walking along the street. She saw them and obviously read my body language to know I was going to approach them, so she put her waggy face on.

Hmm, now I've written that, I'm beginning to think this is all about me (not to sound too self-centred about it). Looking back to yesterday, I saw the two skiers and I saw the two kids and I thought "this is going to be a problem". When people appear around corners without me expecting it, I obviously react in a mildly surprised way. The guy up the ladder the other week - I thought "that's strange, what's he doing?". The first time she came across people with winter equipment, I probably clocked that it was something new for her so maybe I'm giving off small signals that say that I am uncomfortable with the situation and she reacts to that??

Let's counterpoint this with the example that yesterday in our training, two people skied down the mountain and passed us quite close. I looked at them as something completely normal and she barely gave them a second glance, even though a skier is moving quite quickly, they make a strange noise, look different, and came within about 15 feet of us.

Argh!

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

A couple of excerpts from "Look at That!":

The idea of clicking a dog for what many people would view as an undesirable behavior was the inspiration behind my trademark practice of clicking dogs for looking at other dogs. By rewarding a dog for looking at a dog he was worried about and turning it into a game, I found the dog relaxed because his reason for looking at the other dog was no longer a defensive one. Looking became a game that he was playing for clicks and treats and therefore decreased his anxiety. Keep in mind that I work dogs subthreshold. Once the dog has this new coping skill in his toolbox, it gives him a safe and clear rule structure for what to do when dogs or other triggers are present. He becomes a much more confident and attentive working partner. The same method works well for very friendly dogs that have trouble attending to their handler in class or on the street because they want to interact with every dog that approaches. They too can learn that an approaching dog (or kid, or mailman) is a signal to play the “look game” with their handler.

<Two examples of dogs who were trained "look at me" as a band-aid rather than "look at that">

Unlike these two examples of reactive dogs, dogs that are being rewarded for looking at their triggers are simultaneously learning that when they see another dog, something nice happens (counterconditioning); therefore their association about what it means when they see another dog changes.

Getting the best of both worlds
When the dog is allowed to look at what he wants or needs to look at (with reorienting to his handler as part of the rule structure), you are getting the best of both worlds. You are freeing the dog from any possible conflict between being compliant and making sure things are okay. And ultimately the dog is being rewarded for attending to you.

Reframe the experience: Change why the dog is looking
When we click dogs for looking at their triggers, we are aiming to change their motivations. Maybe when you started working with your dog, he was looking at other dogs because he was overly aroused, worried, too interested, or challenging. But once the game is in place, he looks because it's a trick to offer you, a game to play with you, and a rule structure for the anxious or reactive dog that helps him feel safe.

Teach the dog to self-interrupt
Dogs that are comfortable operating within the rule structure of the Look at That! game start reading their triggers (dogs, joggers, men with hats, and so on) as what I call “environmental cues” to reorient to their handlers. So when the dog sees a trigger, he interrupts himself after a brief glance, rather than fixating on the trigger, and turns back to his handler for a treat. In this way, giving the handler attention is built into the game. Since you don't always notice your dog's trigger before he does, reframing a trigger as an environmental cue to reorient to you is extremely helpful and has many applications. By creating a structure where the dog starts self-interrupting at the very beginning of a reactive response (noticing a trigger being the very first step of the response), we can empower the dog to control his own reaction. What a great coping skill to teach!

What actually happens while playing the Look at That! game
The irony with the Look at That! game is that the dogs are learning to pay just as much—if not more—attention to their handlers as they would if they were trained solely to watch their handlers. Again, the structure is: Look at an environmental stimulus (in CU, the stimulus is always another dog) as a behavior to give to your handler. After awhile, the dog becomes so engaged with his handler and so nonchalant about the presence of other dogs that he starts looking for shortcuts. He stops taking the time to look directly at the other dog; barely tilting his head or flicking an eye in another dog's direction, he then stares at his handler as if saying, “You saw that, right?”

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

[quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10221.msg150122#msg150122 date=1426582825]
Hmm, now I've written that, I'm beginning to think this is all about me (not to sound too self-centred about it).
[/quote]

I reckon you're onto something there....

Thanks for posting the text - I do love the reasoning, and it worked just fantastically well for Charlie.

When you first started doing this though, you did not think Willow was scared. It's worth thinking hard about how your own reactions are playing into this, I think.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

OK, so I need to take a chill pill. Anyone got any Valium? ;D

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

;D ;D ;D

I had an interesting time at training a couple of weeks ago. We were walking past distractions (thrown dummies). Charlie started messing around and instead of thinking "oh, no, here we go...we are going to be SUCH a disgrace again..." I thought "we are doing this, Charlie, stop fussing!". And marched on in quite a firm way. He was much, much, better...

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Positive mental attitude!

Not entirely sure how to not be startled by people walking round corners! But next time I see anyone doing something strange, I'll try not to react to them. It's very hard when a dog can sense such minuscule changes in body language and demeanour that you don't even realise you're making. I'm generally a chirpy person, though, so I'll just try to let my natural behaviour patterns apply - smiling and saying hi to people, rather than worrying how Willow is going to react.

It's so true when they say you're training your dog even when you don't know you are.

Even in the short time I've had them, I've reassessed "problems" a hundred times. What seems like the obvious reason for a behaviour (or lack of) is often nothing to do with the actual reason! So, if we're right here, and it's my behaviour that's causing it, it would be very easy to have gone on for ages saying "she doesn't like <insert type of person or situation>" or "she's a reactive dog", whereas it could well be she's just a really good reader of her handler (a good thing) and responds accordingly.

I love the challenge of interpreting this stuff, even if it's highly frustrating at times!!! The forum is an absolutely invaluable resource when it comes to working things through in your own mind.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I think you'll enjoy "the other end of the leash"

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

Still waiting on it. My target stick arrived yesterday - yey! - so hopefully it won't be long

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

[quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10221.msg150122#msg150122 date=1426582825]

Now, even if it's someone she doesn't know, if I approach them, she's absolutely fine. This morning on our walk, two long-term clients of John's were walking along the street. She saw them and obviously read my body language to know I was going to approach them, so she put her waggy face on.

Hmm, now I've written that, I'm beginning to think this is all about me (not to sound too self-centred about it). Looking back to yesterday, I saw the two skiers and I saw the two kids and I thought "this is going to be a problem". When people appear around corners without me expecting it, I obviously react in a mildly surprised way.
[/quote]

Yes, I think so too.

Working hard on your own reaction and body language may be just the cure. I know that when we met tai-che-man-in-middle-of-field I was rather unsettled, so I bet Tatze's alert barking was for that reason.

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

I'll have to ask people to jump out at me from behind obstacles at random times of the day (without the dogs) to try to desensitise me to them.

Warning, random Friends video: https://youtu.be/0ev_ob4mVwg

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

BOO!

 

Re: Willow's barking - frustrating evening but showing a small bit of promise?

[quote author=Boogie link=topic=10221.msg150170#msg150170 date=1426593017]
BOO!


[/quote]


;D ;D ;D