So, I can now do some training that involves sitting - OMG! I can do something useful with Charlie again! Beyond exciting. BUT - he must sit straight, and rise from a sit straight. So none of that cute Labrador puppy sloppy sit - that's got to end. I never did anything about sitting straight. If there was a dummy around, he'd be on high alert, his bum not quite touching the floor, and his legs straight and ready to leap off. And I didn't care in any other situation - why would I care? Well, now I care. Imagine you are trying to strengthen your leg muscles doing squats. Critically important to rise straight, with your weight balanced. That's what I've got to achieve with Charlie. Remember this? That you helped me with? (Via a square broom cupboard). http://www.flickr.com/photos/97932779@N08/10928029535/ It doesn't help that he is on a slippery floor here - watch how his right leg slides outwards. I've got to avoid this. If I get him further forwards, on carpet, I'll be able to move my foot in, and keep his right leg close to his side when he rises. Perfect. But, I never could get him close and straight without the wall. It was work in progress. I can't really just keep playing around until I get it right. I've got to try to get it right really quickly as I move away from the wall. Any tips? How do you get a dog to sit straight normally (people must do it, as lots of dogs don't do the sloppy sit thing, but I think most labs start off doing it)?
Re: straight sit Well a non-slippery surface is the go, but you already know that You could use a low, safe barrier on the carpet as the next step e.g. a rolled up towel, gradually reducing the bulk of it till it's just an edge. Or a chair, then a towel?
Re: straight sit [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4771.msg59105#msg59105 date=1394182377] You could use a low, safe barrier on the carpet as the next step e.g. a rolled up towel, gradually reducing the bulk of it till it's just an edge. Or a chair, then a towel? [/quote] That's a great idea, yes, thanks!
Re: straight sit Well, I would stop saying "come back here, c'mon" I would just say the word heel or rather guide him into the heel position until he understood the word. As you are using the clicker and you have been getting him to sit straight with the aid of the wall (incidentally I would get him to sit longer and longer before you click), you can then move away from the wall and get him to discover how he gets the click for sitting straight. You can gradually shape his straight sits, dogs who do their own learning maintain the behaviour.
Re: straight sit [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4771.msg59141#msg59141 date=1394187135] Well, I would stop saying "come back here, c'mon" [/quote] Sorry? Do you mean the few words at the start of the vid?
Re: straight sit Work on only one dimension at a time - if you want straight work only on straight. Once that's sorted then work on duration at a later time. You shouldn't try to build two dimensions of a behaviour at once.
Re: straight sit Yes, I need straight. Duration isn't a problem anyway - at the end of the vid, when I didn't throw the treat, he stayed where I put him even when I walked away. I can't shape straight - because I can only train so long as he sits straight (because of the injury) so the towel/barrier idea is what I need.
Re: straight sit I do wonder though - is Charlie just particularly sloppy in his sit, or does everyone else have to train this too? Or don't care? I see loads of dogs who sit straight. (By straight, by the way, I mean with knees properly bent under the body - in the vid I was actually training straight to be parallel to my leg to be sent for a retrieve, but it turns out I can use the same thing to teach bent knees by moving my foot in closer - which is what the physio told me to do).
Re: straight sit We get a very sloppy sit as well. I mean, her backside can hit the ground fast, but she still manages to look like she's reclining in comfort after brunch at a pavement café... Had been thinking I should sort it out. Unlike you though with Charlie's surgery, we don't have to - so I'm being lazy for now! Clare
Re: straight sit My two sit straight most of the time but get sloppy when they are tired. I've never trained it and I think my old lab must've always sat sloppy most of the time because I really noticed how straight Scott and scout sit. It's great you can start doing stuff with Charlie again. He'll be retrieving again in no time. Jen
Re: straight sit Yes, I did mean at the beginning of the video and I 'think' you did it later in the video, I could be wrong :-[ You might find that now Charlie is older he will sit straight and not like a puppy, all sloppy, they do seem to grow out of that.
Re: straight sit Riley is nearly three and he still sits sloppy particularly if he has something at his back to lean against so I would look for a barrier that wouldn't be comfy! Also could you use a lure like you would for a puppy sit so that he's less prone to collapse as he's focusing on the lure (much as you describe him when he's sitting for a dummy)
Re: straight sit [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4771.msg59176#msg59176 date=1394202756] Yes, I did mean at the beginning of the video and I 'think' you did it later in the video, I could be wrong :-[ You might find that now Charlie is older he will sit straight and not like a puppy, all sloppy, they do seem to grow out of that. [/quote] Ok, thanks. No, I was just getting his attention to start, I wouldn't say anything but the command I was training in a clicker session until well done at the end. It's worse, unfortunately, because of the injury he is extremely unwilling to bend his knee. This is the first thing to crack before anything else can be done. If I don't tackle it, he is very unlikely to correct it on his own.
Re: straight sit [quote author=bbrown link=topic=4771.msg59184#msg59184 date=1394205171] Also could you use a lure like you would for a puppy sit so that he's less prone to collapse as he's focusing on the lure (much as you describe him when he's sitting for a dummy) [/quote] Yes, that would work. I am wondering how to make this "permanent" though rather than engineered if you know what I mean. Like everyone says, if the dog is alert they sit properly. If not, lazy. I need to sort of train that alertness, I guess. :-\ I was thinking, my "sit" is pretty contaminated. No one but me releases him (I use stay now, but that's a bit contaminated too, now). I was wondering about a new sit command that means "sit straight and don't move until I tell you". :-\
Re: straight sit I think a 'Puppy Sit' is exactly that, they do grow out of it. It's maybe down to developing muscles? When training with dummies, I have the dog sat at my side and throw a dummy in front and then turn 90 degrees to my left and throw another dummy and then turn 90 degrees to left again and another dummy, and finally another. The dog has not retrieved any, but has sat at every position? Might be worth trying it on lead to start. You will find that the dog will turn with you in line to where the dummies are but they will focus out in front at every position and will sit straight.
Re: straight sit Thanks for the tips, it's interesting that people think pups grow out of it. Charlie has had cruciate surgery, and we now have a massive effort to build back his muscle and his right knee is stiff and sore. He never sat with his knees under him properly, even when uninjured and definitely will not do so now. He won't ever, unless we do specific exercises that encourage him to do so and develop the relevant muscles. A good exercises is "squats" controlled up and down from a sit - so long as he sits straight with his knee bent properly under him and uses his injured knee - straight - when rising. I can get him to do that, with my heel exercise against the wall. By "heel" I mean sit on my left hand side, parallel to my leg, from wherever you happen to be, and wherever I happen to be. He will do this even if I move 360 - but, if I move away from the wall, he will no longer sit straight - either in terms of exactly parallel to my leg (which I wouldn't be particularly worried about right now, but for I need it to correct his knee position) or much more critically to what I'm trying to do here, with his knee bent under him directly underneath his body weight. If I can get him to use his knee properly, all the time, then I can train anything that involves a sit and a rise, because this is part of the exercise I need him to do. I am sorry, I was awfully vague before! I think the smaller and smaller barrier as Rachael suggested is the answer, I'll try that and see how I get on. I'll do a vid if I can.
Re: straight sit Thanks for the tips, it's interesting that people think pups grow out of it. Charlie has had cruciate surgery, and we now have a massive effort to build back his muscle and his right knee is stiff and sore. He never sat with his knees under him properly, even when uninjured and definitely will not do so now. He won't ever, unless we do specific exercises that encourage him to do so and develop the relevant muscles. A good exercises is "squats" controlled up and down from a sit - so long as he sits straight with his knee bent properly under him and uses his injured knee - straight - when rising. I can get him to do that, with my heel exercise against the wall. By "heel" I mean sit on my left hand side, parallel to my leg, from wherever you happen to be, and wherever I happen to be. He will do this even if I move 360 - but, if I move away from the wall, he will no longer sit straight - either in terms of exactly parallel to my leg (which I wouldn't be particularly worried about right now, but for I need it to correct his knee position) or much more critically to what I'm trying to do here, with his knee bent under him directly underneath his body weight. If I can get him to use his knee properly, all the time, then I can train anything that involves a sit and a rise, because this is part of the exercise I need him to do. I am sorry, I was awfully vague before! I think the smaller and smaller barrier as Rachael suggested is the answer, I'll try that and see how I get on. I'll do a vid if I can.
Re: straight sit Sorry, I did not know that Charlie has had surgery, poor boy. I am sure that he will repair his leg in time, but as you say it needs to be excercised.
Re: straight sit I think I had squats in mind when I suggested a lure you could try and move him back almost into a sit and then bring him back upright and step forward. Then when you think he's moving forward and back in a straight line you can let m touch his bum down and then up again and step forward. Gradually allowing him to sit for longer, hopefully muscle memory will start to keep him straight! It reminded me of asking horses to collect or do lateral work, after you've asked for the control you have to let them move forward freely as both their reward and to allow them to build up their ability to have such tight control over their movements gradually. Just thoughts really, good luck!
Re: straight sit [quote author=bbrown link=topic=4771.msg59242#msg59242 date=1394219606] I think I had squats in mind when I suggested a lure you could try and move him back almost into a sit and then bring him back upright and step forward. Then when you think he's moving forward and back in a straight line you can let m touch his bum down and then up again and step forward. Gradually allowing him to sit for longer, hopefully muscle memory will start to keep him straight! [/quote] That is a good idea, yes, that's exactly what the physio person did (we had the left side of his bum against the wall, and the right against my leg) but we didn't move forwards. You think he'll translate that away from the wall? Yes, I think he might if my leg is still there on his right. I'll give it a go.
